sparks

I'm assuming that if one of our kids murdered someone or beat up an old person etc we would take them straight down to the police station...

But if your kid was involved in the riots, or nicked something what would you do?

Instinct says yes you should turn them in....

But nowadays the real punishment isn't the sentence...it's the lifelong tag you have put on you that means you have no effective future.

In my day, there was the 'rehabilitation of offenders act', which meant do the crime and accept the punishment. After a period, if you behave it won't be neccessary to disclose that crime. It acted as an incentive to not re-offend. Where is that incentive now?

So for that reason, I wouldn't shop my kids to the cops....they would of course get hell from me!

What do others think?

Somethings gonna blow!

Prison service chiefs have sounded the alarm over potential unrest and violence in overcrowded jails in England and Wales as hundreds of rioters have swelled the prison population to a record level.

 

The Prison Service admitted on Friday that they are "closely monitoring the estate for any potential unrest" after the prison population broke through the 86,000 mark for the first time.

The governors of all jails in England and Wales were earlier this week warned by the Prison Service's "gold commander", who was running the emergency response to the riots, to take steps to ensure the safety of those involved in public disorder who had been remanded in custody for the first time in their lives, it emerged on Friday.

 

"This morning there has been a nasty three person alleged assault. All three victims were public disorder remands, two currently in hospital," Andrew Cross, the Prison Service's deputy director of operations who was acting as gold commander, reported in the email sent out on Monday.

 

A separate email to governors from the Prison Service's national operations group asks them to "watch the mood and atmosphere in your prison" in the aftermath of the alleged assault on three people, which it says took place at Cookham Wood young offenders institution at Borstal in Kent.

 

The internal justice ministry emails indicate that while prison chiefs are fairly confident that they can provide sufficient cells to cope with the rocketing prison population, they have more immediate concerns about the volatility of the jail population.

 

They appear particularly concerned that existing inmates, perhaps from rival gangs, will attack some unwary, unconvicted riot defendants who have never been in trouble before and have little idea of how to safely navigate the gang-hardened culture inside some jails.

And well done Camoron....you've just created an army for the next wave!

'Joe public' doesn't care because they are spoon fed lies..

But when 'joe public' finally wises up to those lies, these recent riots will be a footnote in the history books!

As I said before - many more of this to come...the courts will be clogged up for ages!

And meanwhile the real crims will be getting away with it because the prisons are full with 'rioters' ... or should I dare say it - political prisoners!

That just about sums up the UK!

 

Lol

:Thumbs_Up1:

Just a thought..Imagine looking from the outside in from certain quarters...

The requests to shut down messaging services, general curfews, dispersal orders, kangaroo courts/instant 'justice', forced homelessness, the world's biggest surveillance system and an increasingly militarised police force that is largely unaccountable, limited access to legal services, secret courts, house arrest without trial...

Add to that a corrupt parliament/said police force, discredited electoral system, a ruling/wealthy elite creaming off the nations wealth...

A nation that attacks/invades other sovereign states illegally in order for financial gain...

(And you wait until you see what they have is store next year all in the name of a 'Safe Olympics'... :Winky:)

How else would you describe the UK, ALL1...?

And a view from the other side...

http://www.presstv.i...ail/194012.html

Is our propoganda any better or worse than theirs?

So come on...

How many agree with this?

http://www.guardian....sorder-facebook

England riots: pair jailed for four years for using Facebook to incite disorder

 

Two men – whose posts did not result in riot-related event – sentenced at Chester crown court after arrests last week

How long before it becomes a 'crime' to criticise such a sentence?...How long before it becomes a 'crime' to criticise the Government?...How long before it becomes a 'crime' for just thinking the government is crap!

Mixed with the talk of curfews for all, who is now in any doubt we are actually no better than those countries we condemn for their abuses of their own populations?

We are creating political prisoners in all but name!

Real assets in this country (and across the world) were surpassed by imaginary ones decades ago...

So an interesting example is the new university fees system.

OK, so you don't pay up front, and you only start paying back when you earn over £21k..

Sounds fair, right?....Until of course you look into the 'small print'!

You can't pay upfront (£9k a year), but on graduation (despite promises of a 'penalty'), rich people will be able to pay off the whole amount (£27k) in a lump sum without it costing a penny more...

Those who can't will be forced into a system that they are then tied into even if they then later come into an inheritance that would enable them to do so...

So what does that mean?...well it means a new tax bracket for those who go to university - an extra 10% of your wages above £21k disappears!...And why is that REALLY good news for the government?

There have been several studies which have worked out how much a student will have to pay back. Given the assumption of 'average' inflation (3%) and the average wage of a graduate after 5 years (£35k) and average wage increases (3% p.a) there is no way to pay off the debt...in fact unless you start earning £40k, you never pay off any of the capital, and until you earn £65k you will still be paying back after 20 years...(all figures based on wages this year).

So what does that mean overall?....The average that graduates will be paying off over the period of the loan will be over £135k at today's rates...!

This of course assumes that any government won't change the terms of the repayments or the interest rates (surely not... :Surprise: )

So if our two kids were going to Uni next year, on average the family debt would increase by £270k....

But ours are a decade away, so the bills they would face we can only guess at...

Our advice then will be:

1. Get a degree abroad at a better rate

2. Graduate and then emigrate - and don't tell them where you're going

3. don't bother!

Regarding number 2, Here's a prediction...

The student fees (and debts) will become the responsibility of parents if they go into default...It happened to us (mrs sparks's icelandic education 'loan') 20 years ago...it crippled us for the best part of a decade (our mortgage would now be less than half it is now), but if we didn't pay they would have gone to her parents over there. They didn't have any spare money, so they would have lost their house!

So debt becomes an asset all over again!

This isn't Justice - It's vengeance!

UK riots: magistrates told 'ignore the rule book' and lock up looters

 

 

Courts are being advised that the scale of last week’s civil disobedience means that offences committed during the riots should be dealt with more harshly.

 

The memo, sent late last week by the capital’s most senior justice clerks, led one magistrate to warn that any offenders involved in the “anarchy” can expect a prison sentence.

The looters broke society's rules...

Now society is breaking it's own rules!

The meltdown continues!

Interesting take on what a 'criminal' is...

Police used number-plate spotting technology to turn known criminals away from Manchester in the days after the riots.

How do you tell a 'known criminal' from a reg plate?

And what were their crimes?...

“We were instructing anyone with a previous conviction that they had to leave the city. Quite a number of them had serious previous ­convictions.”

So most (if they were actually properly identified at all) had done nothing serious at all? And those convictions were obviously in the past. So what now - pre-emptive injustice?

This of course has been going on with protestors for years...

Anyone believe we aren't living in a police state!!

So all those in the kangaroo courts going on now will be judged for life...

“We are capitalising on the public’s mood – one of being appalled at what has happened.

 

“People are now talking to us who have never done so before. But there should not be a knee-jerk reaction away from neighbourhood policing – that is still the best way to gather intelligence and keep in touch with the community.

 

“We must get back to normality now and we want people to go back into the city centre.

Yeah, like pointing guns at people?...

No wonder that f*cking yank is being called in!

Bikes..those were the days!

Never had a full license - went from a learner to a car. But I did have a Bob Gollner KT250 trials bike...

Which reminds me... on that European Hitching trip I went to crete from Athens to Crete, and on a whim decided to hire a bike. And way back when Greece was the non law abiding country it is going to become again, who needed a licence!When I came out of the hire place, there was a swiss girl asking if anyone was heading to the south of the island? Naturally I obliged and that was a fun 3 days. Talking of hitching a lift suddenly reminded me of that - ah, the memories...( :Winky: )

Oh, and also just remembered. In Turkey, a mad truck driver who gave me a lift allowed me to drive a 38 Tonner!

I was just reading this article, and it brought back memories...

Is hitchhiking a thing of the past?

We used to get around our local area all the time this way when we were younger - when we weren't bunking the trains...lol

I hitched all the way from Calais to Trabzon in Turkey (apart from a quick flight from Dubrovnik to Skopye), and then back to Athens. As well as around NZ and Israel..

Never felt threatened, but I wouldn't be bothered to do it any more, and would be concerned if our daughters did the same when they are older...And irrational too, given that I don't believe that there are any more weirdos out there than back then.

I haven't given anyone a lift in years - but then I can't remember seeing anyone hitching for years!

So has anyone else hitched/given people lifts, and have your views now changed?

Does anyone still do it?

An interesting article....

Link

It was the 1980s and in some strange, New Romantic way the waistcoats and tails may have seemed fashionable.

 

As members of the Bullingdon dining club, which dates back more than 150 years, David Cameron and his friends were obliged to wear the outfits for their annual photograph.

 

But within hours of the photo being taken, the 10 young men were wreaking havoc on Oxford, where they were all at university.

 

One of them, said to be Ewen Fergusson, threw a plant pot through a restaurant window and the police were called.

 

 

Some tried to make a getaway but were arrested and thrown in police cells overnight.

 

"The party ended up with a number of us crawling on all fours through the hedges of the botanical gardens, and trying to escape police dogs," said Boris Johnson, who was among those arrested. "And once we were in the cells we became pathetic namby-pambies."

And what did our illustrious leader say about their antics?

Cameron is the leader of the Conservative Party, who said recently: "Like many young people, I did things when I was young that I should not have done and that I regret."

 

He was probably referring to his youthful involvement with cannabis rather than the Bullingdon Club, but the destructive activities of the club mean that many of the members have developed an appropriate amnesia. "The blissful sponge of amnesia has wiped clean the slate of memory," said Mr Johnson.

 

"Until I saw that photograph I had really forgotten all about it," said another former member.

 

The Bullingdon modus operandi is to book a restaurant under a false name, smash it up, and throw large amounts of money at the upset owners — a form of behaviour which dates back to Victorian times.

Sounds like 'riotous behaviour' to me!

 

Unfortunately those who get found guilty will only recieve minimal sentencing, as we're currently experiencing overcrowding within our Prisons already.

I'd have said the opposite given the reports so far..

And over two thirds remanded, whereas the usual rate is 10% !

I do find it amusing though that whilst Camoron is going on about arresting as many as possiible and giving out tough deterrent sentences, the guy he sees as his saviour (the american 'super cop') says that's not the answer...

"You can't arrest your way out of the problem,"

His approach is to get the youngsters involved in community centres ....Dumb Dave is of course in the process of closing those centres down!

And what everyone has to realise is that all those with a criminal record now become effectively unemployable for life given our draconian CRB set up!

That's really just going to make things worse....If you don't have a future, then why should you give a f*ck anymore!

Mind you, when the lawyers get involved with appeals and the time it takes to get a crown court trial, the courts are going to be clogged up for years!

Especially if the numpties then insist on trying to kick whole families onto the street for an alleged offence by one member of that family....That won't happen of course, but it makes good headlines for the government!

A Similar one was doing the rounds after the Student protests...

I recall MP's getting all in a state about it then...

Does this seem familiar?

1984!

Cameron's law: PM planning crackdown on rioters

Police to have power to shut down social networks

Can we expect a similar reaction from Obama?....

Link

President Obama expressed disapproval on Thursday of Egypt’s crackdown on the Internet as police battled protestors in the streets of Cairo and other Egyptian cities.

 

The use of social networking sites to organize demonstrations spurred the government of Hosni Mubarak to block Twitter and Facebook and eventually also block both wireless and wired Internet access, according to news reports.

 

During an interview with Steve Grove, the head of news and politics at YouTube, President Obama cited a need for mechanisms that “allow [people] to express legitimate grievances.”

 

“There are certain core values that we believe as Americans are universal: freedom of speech, freedom of expression, people being able to use social networking and other mechanisms to communicate their concerns; and that is no less true in the Arab world than it is in the United States,” he said.

Funnily enough Camoron thought it important enough to talk about too...

Link

Mr Cameron also criticised Egyptian efforts to block access to the internet and called for the bar to be lifted.

Steal £3.50 worth of water - get 6 months...

Steal billions - get a bonus..

There is no doubt that the politicians are now telling the judiciary what to do...

Welcome to England - a bankrupt country in all senses of the word, and no different from any banana republic you care to mention!

Edit: Oh, and as if to further prove the point....

Hundreds refused bail, and remanded in custody...but:

THE millionaire's daughter accused of looting was yesterday in hiding at her family's home. Laura Johnson, 19, was allegedly caught driving away from a riot in Charlton with stolen goods worth £5,500.

 

She was bailed on burglary charges to her parents' £1million home in Orpington, Kent.

 

 

Just wondering if you have managed to influence anything yet??/

 

Serious question,not taking thewee btw

A veteran of being involved in too many campaigns to list....

But the highlights:

Getting rid of local Town Wardens/Bullies...That was a fun campaign!

Preventing the sale of local council/public land in the South Downs national park, and involved in plan to conserve the land..Ongoing, but it looks like we will be getting full public access!

Stopping a local housing development destroying an ancient woodland...the wood is saved, but development plans downsized - still fighting that one!

(Currently involved in campaign to stop the forests sell off...major u-turn by condems, but 15% still at risk)

Some of these have been covered on local/national TV/Radio...

Oh, and my MP (who has been a bit of a bad boy in parliament recently) won't talk to me anymore after being humiliated in the local media for being shown up as a liar!...that one is with the parliamentary ombudsman at the moment...

Sorry if you thought I was all talk.... :Winky:

The other half sometimes gets involved too - she got the council to change the street cleaning policy in our area which has really improved things. And she is currently trying to get the council to reverse it's decision to charge for street parties...

But none of this would have been possible from within the council, as all that ever seems to happen is political infighting! And

In a follow up to 2ndloser's intuitive post...

UK riots: insurers 'will pay claims then recover money from the police'

The recent events have reminded me of an interesting incident...

Some years ago we had a 'static' protest regarding a development we were trying to prevent (and so far have done so). It was 'static' because that was legal at the time, and a moving demo would be illegal...however as often happens, events took over and a march on the Town Hall took place..

One particular cop tried to prevent this happening, and indeed tried to 'read the riot act'...

I shall never forget a very respectable old lady (at least 70) walking up to him and saying....

"young man - go f*ck yourself"!

Morale of the tale - don't believe in stereotyping!

 

 

Sparks why dont you run for your local goverment? then maybe 1 day you can change the way things are!

It's much easier to influence things outside of local politics...too many go in hoping to do good and end up as corrupt as the rest!

This is my view on you....

 

I have stated my views quite clearly in this and my other posts,all regarding subject of the posts.

 

About time you realised that members make posts to discuss a subject and not to be hijacked by you on your favorite subject.

 

Are you not capable of having a sensible discussion????

Fair enough - you are entitled to your views, despite not actually putting forward any reasonable argument IMO...

It's just a pity that those views don't change when the facts do!...

Some of us wait to see what develops before spouting things that very quickly come back to haunt!

As for my 'favourite subject', I'm not sure which one that is. But if you are unable to see that a lot of the subjects being discussed at the moment are linked, then it's no wonder that solutions to the problems are almost impossible to find!

But here's a question for you (and everyone else)...

Do you think that overnight virtual courts with no access to proper legal advice are the way to go in the UK in 2011?

Change the record please,polly,sorry sparkie.

 

there may or not be truth in what you say,but stop winging about it in every single thread,this thread is not about that,please start a new thread if you want to discuss it.

I am sure you will get many replies on the subject.

What was that about a parrot?...

I believe you've already spouted your 'non' viewpoint here already.... :Winky:

In the courts the people that have been caught are being charged with burglary and public order offences, not rioting, not looting, because under the law the government (via the local police forces), rather than the insurance companies, would be held responsible for compensation costs for failing to uphold law and order for both of these offences, that's why in his two speeches on the subject the prime minister didn't mention either "rioting" or "looting" - it's all a clever ploy to avoid culpability.

 

What bears this out is the initial response by the police who on the first few nights seemingly didn't respond to those rioting and looting but was this by design?

 

In the event of rioting the official tactic is:

 

1. Identify the leaders / instigators

 

2. Deploy "snatch squads" to remove them

 

3.Contain the remaining crowd ("kettling")

 

In the event of public order offences the official tactic is:

 

1.Observe / record the offence

 

2.If this includes breaking and entry of a premises - secure the premises after the fact

 

3.Arrest suspects using aquired evidence

 

Most of the culprets who pleaded guilty have been referred to crown court because magistrates do not have the sentencing powers, burglary = 6 months as opposed to 10 years if a case is heard at crown court.

At least someone else has the ability to analyse the situation... :Thumbs_Up1:

In addition, the police no longer 'read the riot act' (as they should, andno it's not just a saying), because they would then be culpable as you say...

And what those who appear in court should do is to claim common law justice!